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Eric Bogatin

Broadside Crosstalk

Eric Bogatin
EricBogatin
EricBogatin
11/29/2012 10:46:56 AM
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Re: More on expanding the role of DesignCon
Lee-

I would not recommend we open up for-an-additional-fee tutorials at DesignCon. This sort of event is available at PC Design West and as pubic classes.

Traditionally, DesignCon has offered free tutorials on Mondays and had Thurs and Friday available for companies to offer free half or whole day workshops to invited customers.

I think once an attendee pays their fee to atend DesignCon, it should be an "all you can eat" event, with no additional fees.

DesignCon is an opportunity for experts who don't normally teach classes, to share their expertise with the industry.  If someone wants to offer a tutorial, it should be free.

A for-a-fee tutorial can be offered in the same time frame, but I think it should be unaffiliated with DesignCon.

--eric

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EricBogatin
EricBogatin
11/29/2012 10:37:25 AM
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Re: Noise saturation
Martin- here's what I mean by the "saturated" near end noise.

If you look at the signature of near end noise between two uniform transmisison lines, you'll see that the noise voltage rises up with the rise time and reaches a maximim value 1 RT later. This is the case providing the coupled round trip time, 2 x TD, is longer than the rise time. We call the TD = 1/2 RT the saturation time delay, or length. 

If the TD is longer than 1/2 RT, the near end noise has reached its maximum, saturated amount. Making the length longer does not increase the magniutude of near end noise. This is not the case for far end noise.

I address this topic briefly in an upcoming DesignCon paper I am doing with Bert Simonovich on Wed at 9:20am.

--eric

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Lee Ritchey
Lee Ritchey
11/28/2012 6:46:25 PM
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More on expanding the role of DesignCon
In an earlier post, I suggested the DesignCon might be expanded to provide some extended training courses such as:

1. An all day treatment of differential pairs

2.  Two day basic treatment of SI and overall high speed design

3. A detailed treatment of stackup design and PCB materials

4. An all day treatment of power delivery system design.

We have plenty of resources to do this and it would only require a modest fee of those who wish to attend.

Speakers should be paid a modest fee for their time as it will involve more that the one or two hour talks we currently provide free of charge.

When this used to be done at the PCB conferences it drew large crowds who did not mind paying for the training.

Currently, there is no conference that does this for new engineers and those who need to update their skills.

 

 

 

 

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Lee Ritchey
Lee Ritchey
11/28/2012 6:40:15 PM
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More on cross talk
When one is designing with CMOS, the logic family has a known noise magin.  This is consumed by four things.

1. Vdd and ground bounce in the IC package

2. Reflections

3. Crosstalk

4. Ripple on Vdd.

So, as Eric i fond of saying, "it depends".

If you have poor package design there is less available for cross talk, etc.

 

For diff pairs, 1 and 3 are usuall small players.

 

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Lee Ritchey
Lee Ritchey
11/28/2012 6:38:57 PM
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Re: Coming soon: crosstalk at DesignCon 2013
When one is designing with CMOS, the logic family has a known noise magin.  This is consumed by four things.

1. Vdd and ground bounce in the IC package

2. Reflections

3. Crosstalk

4. Ripple on Vdd.

So, as Eric i fond of saying, "it depends".

If you have poor package design there is less available for cross talk, etc.

 

For diff pairs, 1 and 3 are usuall small players.

 

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Martin Rowe
Martin Rowe
11/15/2012 1:57:40 PM
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Noise saturation
Eric,

What do you mean by "saturated near-end noise?" How does doise saturate?

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Barry J. Sullivan
Barry J. Sullivan
11/15/2012 1:24:39 PM
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Coming soon: crosstalk at DesignCon 2013
I'm glad you brought up the topic of crosstalk, Eric.  This has been an area of growing interest at DesignCon over the past couple years.  Your demonstration of how the acceptable broadside length shrinks with shorter rise times illustrates why this is an area of increasing concern.

I plan to preview the DesignCon 2013 papers on this topic in the coming weeks.  Stay tuned!

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